May 20 2008

Evolution vs. Intelligent Design – Round 1

Published by admin at 1:21 pm under Intelligent Design

In the last post, I lumped proponents of evolution into the category of Darwinists, and lumped proponents of Intelligent Design and Creationism as Creationists, for the sake of simplicity. In reality, there are those who believe in aspects of evolution but not in everything Darwin himself proposed, and there are also fundamental differences between Creationism and Intelligent Design. For this post, I will be separating these theories into the more specific categories of Evolution vs. Intelligent Design. Evolution will be defined as the idea that all living things are the products of matter organized at random, without direction and not according to any pre-determined design. Intelligent Design will be defined as the idea that all living things exist according to a pre-determined design established by intelligence. One of these theories will be proven by the end of this post. (Creationism follows intelligent design but additionally proposes that a Deity or Supreme Being is responsible for the origin of life and the organization of matter into specific designs, but Creationism will not be discussed in this posting.)

 

The fundamental issue that is not being addressed in the battle between intelligent design and evolution is design itself. A design is a set of laws which establish the arrangement and functionality of an organism or entity. To scientifically prove the theories of intelligent design or evolution is to first prove whether living things function according to a design comprised of laws or function lawlessly and without design, or at random. If life forms are found to exist indiscriminately, no second step is necessary because the theory of evolution will be proven correct. If life forms are found to exist according to design, then intelligent design will be proven correct which in turn engenders two subsequent intelligent design theories pertaining to the origin of the design, whether it originates from the intelligence of the life form itself or established by some other intelligence. (Design cannot exist independent of intelligence because designs are plans which determine the structure and function of an organism in the language of physical laws. The compilation of laws into fixed designs is by definition, intelligence.)

 

Here are the three possible theories of the origin of life listed out specifically, along with a general assessment of its scientific validity:

 

A) Evolution – Life spontaneously originated from non-living matter as a single-celled organism and accumulated matter/mutated at random without design, law, or purpose, which process gave rise to all life forms over time. Spontaneous generation has not yet been witnessed, replicated, or proven in any scientific manner, nor has anything ever been found to exist without design, structure or law.

 

B) Intelligent Design: Internal – All living things function according to a design established by its own intelligence. The life form itself is responsible for its own genesis, for accumulating and organizing matter according to its own design, for adapting itself to any changes in its environment, and for the design of its offspring. No living thing which can pre-determine or establish the laws of its own functionality has yet been scientifically proven to exist, but it is a scientific fact that all things in the universe exist by design and according to law and order.

 

C) Intelligent Design: External – All living things function according to a design established by intelligence other than its own. External intelligence is responsible for its genesis. Life forms grow, adapt, procreate and function according to pre-established laws originated by independent intelligence. An intelligent designer of any kind has not yet been scientifically proven to exist, but it is a scientific fact that all things in the universe exist by design and according to law and order.

 

Theories A, B and C are currently the only possible scientific explanations for the existence of life, but the scientific validity of each theory automatically rules out evolution, or theory A, as a possibility. If nothing in the universe exists at random - without structure, design, or law - then evolution is false. Intelligent design is responsible for the existence of life, and so we must now direct our attention toward theories B and C.

 

Before we move on to intelligent design, we must first address four popular fallacies: “natural selection”, “macroevolution”, “microevolution” and “unintelligent design”. Those who have been misled by these ideas would argue that they should be included as additional possible explanations for the existence of life, which they are not because natural selection, macroevolution and microevolution already fall under intelligent design, and unintelligent design does not exist.

 

Natural Selection

As per natural selection, if change over time originates from reproductive selections, then the intelligence of the organism itself would be responsible for the design and intelligence of its offspring according to theory B, and the intelligence of some other entity would be responsible for the subsequent design and intelligence of offspring according to theory C. Natural selection cannot fall under evolutionary theory A because evolution is in direct conflict with it. An intelligently designed life form possessing the intelligence to make “favorable” reproductive choices (because it must have intelligence enough to know what is “favorable” for its design in the first place, not to mention the fact that it is intelligently designed for reproduction) is contrary to evolutionary life forms which accumulate matter at random without law and without design (which are not known to exist).

 

Macroevolution

Macroevolution, though it has never been proven, is the ability of one species to evolve into another species over time. If this were true it could only fall under intelligent design because if a species has the ability to evolve into another then it would be due to the fact that it has been intelligently designed to do so, and would evolve according to the laws of its design. It is a life form’s intelligent design that provides for reproductive processes and inheritance in the first place. All macro evolving life forms could only be described as one intelligently designed species somehow transforming into another intelligently designed species according to the dictates of an internal or external intelligence.

 

Microevolution

Microevolution - small changes within species over time - has been proven but must also fall under intelligent design because whatever changes a species makes is according to the laws of its intelligent design. The species is specifically designed to change certain things over time such as the shape of facial features or height, but it is not designed to change other things, such as the necessity of a brain, heart, or the structure of a cell, etc. It is therefore permitted or prohibited to make certain changes according to an external or internal intelligence. Micro evolving life forms can only be described as changes within a species over time according to the laws of intelligent design.

 

Unintelligent Design

Unintelligent design is a deceptive term used to attribute the appearance of design in all things to nothing more than purposeless and unguided conglomerations generated by random elements reacting in accordance with the laws of physics and chemistry (or the natural forces of the universe). But if elements were random and lawless, they would not be subject to any law whatsoever, including all chemical and physical laws in the universe. Because elements are intelligently designed, part of their design is to react physically and chemically in specific, lawful ways under certain conditions. If they were not intelligently designed to react, there would be no reaction. This is why “unintelligent design” is self-contradictory, and therefore cannot exist. Because design exists in all things, all things exist in one of two states: in accordance with design laws (true) or in violation of design laws (false). Intelligence is the ability to distinguish between, express, or manifest true and false. Because all living and non-living things are intelligently designed, all things have the ability to exhibit whether they are in accordance with or in violation of their design laws. If a thing is in accordance, then it will be true, on, functional, ordered, enduring, constructive or living, (depending on whether the subject in question is living or non-living). If it is in violation of intelligent design laws, it will be false, off, dysfunctional, disordered, degenerate, destructive or dying/dead. Because all things have the ability to indentify and/or express true and false, all design is intelligent. If design could be unintelligent, there would exist no differentiation between or expression of true and false. Thus if unintelligent design were a reality, instead of a binary universe there would be some sort of unimaginable and indescribable realm of neither something nor nothing, of neither living nor dead, on nor off, truth nor falsehood. But this is not so, nor could it ever be, which makes the concept of “unintelligent design” a self-contradiction in the exact same sense as “the laws of evolution”.

 

Now that these nonsensical notions are done away with, we can now focus on which intelligent design theory is true.

 

Let us now consider theories B and C, whether life forms are designed according to their own intelligence or external intelligence. If humans, the most intelligent life form known to exist, cannot dictate a single law governing our own functionality and design, no other less intelligent life form can either. Therefore Theory B is just as fatuous and fraudulent a theory as evolution is. Simply stated, there is no such thing as a life form that can conceptualize itself and then go on to construct itself, or conceptualize and construct itself simultaneously, no matter how expansive the time frame. Life forms cannot in any way create, destroy or ignore the laws by which they function. That leaves us with Theory C - All living things function according to a design established by intelligence other than its own.

 

This is not a complicated subject at all. All things in the universe are governed not only by the natural laws of the universe, but are also governed by a specific and unique set of laws that make up its functional design. The laws that govern the intelligent design of any living or non-living organism are as immutable as the laws that govern the universe, and are as indestructible. The truth of this issue is so logical and easily concluded that I am beginning to wonder if both sides have been prolonging this tired debate so that the grant money will continue to flow in to fund their “research”. What scientists should all be searching for is the source of this external intelligence by which all things have been designed, which might happen if they were objective enough to recognize that not only does the entire structure of the universe and the realm of science completely reject the myth of evolution, but so does the behavior of evolutionary scientists themselves.     

 

If evolution is such a widespread and accepted theory, then why do evolution proponents conduct all their scientific study and research under the assumption that all living things are intelligently designed? When are evolutionary scientists ever undergoing studies about the current “natural selection” of life forms and their resulting change over time into new species? Why aren’t they researching burn victims to see if their offspring will eventually evolve fireproof skin? Why aren’t they offering money to case-study people who have survived gunshot wounds or 100 foot falls and encouraging them to generate offspring who will someday evolve wings and resistance to bullets? How about getting everyone to perpetually drive drunk to see if we can’t evolve past alcohol-related auto fatalities? If scientists proclaim that evolution is so slow it cannot possibly be studied or observed, why aren’t they researching ways in which evolution can be sped up? If evolution is irrefutable, why aren’t scientists clamoring to be the first to identify what controls the rate of evolution and discover ways in which it can be accelerated? Why are evolutionary scientists completely disinterested in studying children with birth defects, and excitedly researching these wondrous genetic mutations that are supposedly the beginning of evolution toward new species? Why are evolutionary scientists the ones who fret over the temperature of the earth and the polar bear count, when life forms are so adept at evolving that polar bears, lacking ice shelves, could simply evolve back into walruses or whales? When the news of earthquakes, floods, fires, “global warming”, famines and widespread viruses make headlines, why are evolution proponents not shrugging their collective shoulders with callous indifference, instructing us to shut up and deal with natural disasters by evolving resistance to them and improving our fitness for survival? If life is so rough for humans, why can’t we evolve back into simpler and less energy-consuming organisms like, say, cockroaches? If living things share common DNA, then it should be fairly easy to disregard our genes that code for Homo sapiens and express only the genes for Periplaneta americana.

 

The truth is, all scientists know evolution is a sham, that all living things exist according to the immutable laws of intelligent design, and if these laws are violated, life forms perish. This is the cause of their panic; in the face of tragedy and disaster, we humans with our unalterable, indestructible intelligent designs are subject to utter annihilation as there is zero chance of evolving survival abilities beyond our pre-established designs simply because evolution does not exist. Change exists, but only according to the dictates of intelligent design. Intelligent design is responsible for what kinds of changes an organism is allowed to make, or whether change is permitted at all. Scientists know not to waste time studying children with birth defects because all mutations are violations of intelligent design laws which is why the term “defect” is used, because when something required to function according to intelligent design fails to do so, it is defective, not effective. The scientific world revolves around and is dependent upon the invariable laws of intelligent design. Without intelligent design, scientists would have no possible way to study life forms, as all life forms would exist randomly and lawlessly. There would be no way to study ANY organism, living or non-living, were it not for the universal application of intelligent design. (The real kicker is that even if a life form could exist at random and without law, it must have been designated as such according to intelligent design.)

 

It is then not only the behavior of scientists that affirm the reality of intelligent design, but science itself. Science can only be described as an acknowledgement of intelligent design. Science is the study of the designs and laws that govern all living and non-living things. If evolution was true there would be no design to study as all things would exist at random, without law and without truth. Nothing would be testable or verifiable because there would be no constant law to test against, and nothing to test for. As was mentioned above under “unintelligent design”, if there were no pre-established design or pre-set laws by which life functions, there would be no such thing as illnesses, defects, or death. Illnesses, defects and death are nothing more than violations of pre-determined laws, which laws cannot be created nor destroyed. If a law requires an organism to function a certain way and it fails to do so, then according to intelligent design there would be an illness or defect associated with that failure, and according to evolution there would be no such thing as an illness or a defect, because there is no pre-established law or design by which it could be dysfunctional. It also would have no reason to experience death because it would simply not have a law requiring it to die. Is there such a thing as illness, defects or death in all life forms? Yes. Therefore it is a scientific fact that all life forms exist according to pre-established designs or in violation of them. Organisms which abide by their pre-established designs are functional, and organisms which violate laws established by their designs are dysfunctional. Can we now go further than simple true and false and prove that these designs were established by intelligence higher than our own? Do any life forms, while intelligent to varying degrees, understand all of the laws governing their functionality? No, they do not. In fact, it is only human beings who have obtained enough intelligence to even begin to study our own pre-established designs such as cellular respiration, DNA, etc. If we cannot fully comprehend our own pre-established design and cannot do anything to change it even if we did, then that means whatever did establish our design does understand it. If we, being intelligent do not understand something and cannot establish our own laws, but something else does comprehend and has established our laws, then the latter must be intelligent – even more so than we are.

 

Because science itself is an acknowledgement of intelligent design, and the behavior of all scientists is also an acknowledgement intelligent design, the entire realm of science must be reestablished upon the basic principle that all things are intelligently designed. To not do so would be unscientific.

8 Responses to “Evolution vs. Intelligent Design – Round 1”

  1. bobxxxxon 20 May 2008 at 5:41 pm

    “This post will argue the theory of Evolution as it pertains to the notion that all living things are the products of matter organized at random, without direction and not according to any pre-determined design.”

    New life forms are not pre-determined, so you’re correct about that. It’s very interesting that there was nothing inevitable about the development of the human species. For example, if the huge asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago had missed the earth, it’s not likely our very small mammal ancestors would have ever evolved into primates, including us.

    Natural selection selects favorable mutations. The mutations are random, but there’s nothing random about natural selection.

    “Macroevolution, though it has never been proven, is the ability of one species to evolve into another species over time.”

    Biologists rarely use the words macroevolution and microevolution. They just call it evolution. Creationists like to say microevolution is true but macroevolution is false, as if there is some invisible barrier that makes evolution come to a complete stop before a species starts looking too different from its ancient ancestors. The creationists are wrong. There is no invisible barrier. New species have been developing for almost 4 billion years. No proof? Wrong again. There’s massive evidence for the idea that all species are related. Anyone who has studied the molecular evidence for evolution knows how biologists can determine evolutionary relationships with 100% accuracy. For example, biologists are certain that the closest living cousins of humans are the chimpanzee apes. We are so closely related to the other ape species that humans are considered to be an ape species. An example of this powerful molecular evidence is Endogenous RetroViruses (ERVs) found in the exact same location in the genome of two or more species. The only possible explanation for these identical ERVs in identical locations is these ERVs were inherited from the same ancestor species. A creationist might say God inserted identical ERVs into the exact same locations of the DNA of two or more species to deceive scientists, but that idea is too crazy to consider. Sorry, but these are facts and it’s impossible for an educated person to deny these facts.

    Intelligent design is just another way of saying “It was magic”. Intelligent design magic is not scientific and it’s disgraceful there are still people who believe in magic in the 21st century.

    I would like to modify your last paragraph to make it more honest:

    “Because science itself is an acknowledgement of MAGIC, and the behavior of all scientists is also an acknowledgement of MAGIC, the entire realm of science must be reestablished upon the basic principle that all things are MAGICALLY CREATED. To not do so would be unscientific.”

    Actually science has nothing to do with magic, or what you call intelligent design.

    It took me quite a bit of time to write these comments, so I appreciate you letting me put these comments on your blog. Have a nice day.

  2. adminon 21 May 2008 at 9:42 am

    Hello bobxxxx! Sorry it took me so long to approve your comment, I had no idea I would be getting any. Frankly I’m shocked that anyone has found this blog, as I have not told anyone about it or given anyone any links to it (it’s kind of a new thing for me). Can you tell me how you found it? I didn’t think this blog even came up on any search engines!!

    But anyway, thanks for reading my post, and I appreciate your comments very much. I wasn’t planning on promoting this blog until my third post, which is forthcoming and which will explain why intelligent design is no more “magic” than the law of gravity is to a pre-Newtonian. Hope you have a nice day too!

    p.s. - did you even read my blog post? Your entire comment was a regurgitation of the same old evolution argument that I have just thoroughly debunked. You might want to read it again.

  3. Trentonon 08 Jul 2008 at 12:24 am

    Brilliant.

    And of course, you can’t teach an evolutionist anything, because they keep throwing the same old arguments at you, thinking that eventually you will understand it.

    Einstein called that insanity, but I will refrain from going that far. I’ll simply say it’s not an effective debate strategy.

    The fact is, Evolution rests upon a framework of assumptions of design, or ordered laws. And thus even if evolution were demonstrable, which it is not, it would still be part of an intelligent design at some point in the very ancient past.

    Another of the key points brought up here, which bobxxxx completely avoids, is the fact that the scientific method was formulated with the presumption of an intelligent designer, i.e. God. It was intended to teach us how God created all things, and how His creations function.

    If Evolution is random mutation, then the evolutionists need to find their own way of explaining it, rather than hijacking the method invented by Christian scientists in their effort to understand God’s creation. But, then again, that would assume a level of intelligence beyond what any of us possess.

    Reality is what it is; it can be neither altered nor abridged. You evolutionists might as well get used to it.

  4. Stephanieon 09 Jul 2008 at 10:36 am

    I would like to ask Bobxxxx to explain why we have not yet been able to harvest the heart or the eye’s or other parts of an ape in order to save a human life, or further, why have we not yet figured out -with all our intelligence- how to turn an ape into a human? If we are so closely related to apes and if that can be proven absolutely, then one must also be able to explain the reason why we cannot accelerate our own evolution or the evolution of a creature that though we are apparently so closely related to, still exsists in it’s less intelligent form. In other words, why are we allowing apes to be caged and gawked at in zoo’s all over the country when their potentiall for human offspring could produce the next generation of brilliant evolutionary scientists?

  5. Phil801on 23 Nov 2008 at 11:28 am

    Quoting Bobxxx:

    “An example of this powerful molecular evidence is Endogenous RetroViruses (ERVs) found in the exact same location in the genome of two or more species. The only possible explanation for these identical ERVs in identical locations is these ERVs were inherited from the same ancestor species. ”

    Hey Bob, don’t you mean the “only possible explanation I can come up with” Or “only possible explanation I’ll accept”? Have you allowed for and dis-proven other hypothesis? Have you allowed for anything else at all? Or have you just leapt to and accepted the only possible explanation that supports your preconceptions? Prove or disprove this hypothesis (a hypothesis that does not have a preconception that one or the other theory is true): One explanation for these identical ERVs in identical locations is that the only way for a species with this particular design or function is to have those exact ERVs in their precise location - any other location or ERV would cause the species to fail. Therefore through random selection or design the only way for the two species to succeed would be to have that characteristic.

    Until you can prove or disprove that hypothesis, you cannot conclude that a separate hypothesis is correct - as you have done, therefore your conclusion is suspect, false, mis-leading and irresponsible. That, my friend, is how the scientific method and science itself works.

    “A creationist might say God inserted identical ERVs into the exact same locations of the DNA of two or more species to deceive scientists, but that idea is too crazy to consider.”

    You’re attempting to support the conclusion of your hypothesis by outright rejecting another hypothesis on the basis that it is crazy? You show your preconception that it is crazy to consider a differing hypothesis - in other words, you show that you believe that to consider any possibility other than evolution is crazy. The problem is that this blog post is all about examining possibilities other than evolution and determining at their base level whether they are based on a true or false hypothesis.

    You’re saying that you refuse to even consider any option other than evolution. You’ve completely ignored the authors actual research and conclusions and chosen to inject some differing piece of evidence and then draw the only hypothesis allowed, determine it to be accurate and then state that any other consideration is crazy, therefore the base argument of this research must be crazy. You so far have completely failed at even approaching the subject matter. As the author said, did you even read the post?

    You thrash about as if you understand and support scientific exploration but you have proven yourself to be quite unscholarly in your approach to the authors hypothesis. The author did an excellent job of describing their issue, hypothesis, research, analysis and subsequent conclusions. You’ve come in here and completely ignored all that. If you’re going to play scientist, learn the rules - you attack the research, analysis and conclusions not inject some random low-level fact and then declare that your hypothesis is that it’s crazy to even have a hypothesis.

    In conclusion bobxxx, you seem to need an evolve a bit - beyond the big dumb ape phase.

    “Sorry, but these are facts and it’s impossible for an educated person to deny these facts.”

    You only presented ONE fact - the point about the ERVs. Everything else you submitted was nowhere near a fact, it wasn’t even an analysis really, you exposed your own preconceptions in your conclusion.

    Sorry, but THESE FACTS that I have countered with are impossible for ANY educated (which I suspect YOU are NOT) person to deny.

    Your entire comment was useless drivel spewed by an uneducated unthinking assumptionist that contributed nothing to the authors work. Maybe you should go protest something.

  6. Phil801on 23 Nov 2008 at 11:37 am

    Oops - I left out one thing while countering this statement from bobxxx:

    “A creationist might say God inserted …, but that idea is too crazy to consider.

    You are making a typical defensive maneuver here. You KNOW that a creationist is going to say that God did it - a creationist believes that God did all of it, so of course they’re going to say that! The ONLY reason you pointed out EXACTLY what you knew a creationist would say is to create an opportunity for you to attempt to discredit, attack and insult the creationist hypothesis of God.

    While the author provides logic and analysis based evidence to support their conclusions, you do NOTHING to refute, address or even acknowledge it - you instead create your own opening to attack a hypothesis without addressing it.

    Bad form bob. This is a childish way to analyze anything, you’re acting like a bully on a playground trying to intimidate the ‘nerd’ by calling them names. Grow up, get in the game or go away - your inability and/or unwillingness to address the research presented is annoying and unproductive.

  7. Phil801on 23 Nov 2008 at 12:07 pm

    To the author:

    I like and really appreciate that you have taken this argument to its core assumptions. You are absolutely correct that both sides of the debate stumble forward without having solid a foundation for their base assumptions, which you have very aptly provided for them.

    I wish this could be entered and discussed in the mainstream - it would be interesting to see what hypothesis would emerge from the evolution side to counter your conclusion and to continue the existence of their (as you have shown) flawed theory.

    I suspect it would be some creative way to allow for both chaos and order to co-exist. The only way for an evolutionist to disprove your theory would be to disrupt your demonstration that chaos either does not have a place in evolution or that chaos begat order once the being was evolved.

    This, I think, would only work in one place in evolutionary theory - in the ’spark of life’ part. Chaos created a random set of events that caused or allowed all requirements to be met to allow life to begin to exist. When this occurred it could not have been a singularity of life that resulted - it would have had to result in millions of ‘life forms’ being created. From this chaotic result, order would have been established through natural selection - only the properly ordered resulting organisms would have survived.

    As an option to that, perhaps the random occurrence of required conditions/events occurred millions of times with minute differences, thus creating millions of slightly different life forms of which eventually died out until one that was correctly created finally survived.

    From either of these amoebic existences, adaptation and evolvement could have occurred with billions upon billions of failed results and the singular proper ones surviving. From this came order - as the properly ordered life forms adapted and survived, a design was then established to which we now adhere - this set of rules that governs what was able to survive and what is required for it to continue to survive.

    In this way, the design is established by millions of variables playing out to their end which provides that some variables are still playing out now. Continuous adaptation will potentially later alter the current rules of design and allow for something new or different to exist.

    How does this possibility fit into your hypothesis? Or, how does your conclusion on design accurately discount this hypothesis?

    Thank you for clearly taking copious amounts of time to fully research, present and defend your hypothesis. It’s nice for a reasonable approach to finally be taken to this issue!

  8. adminon 24 Nov 2008 at 11:39 pm

    To Phil801:

    I very much appreciate your comments! I’m grateful for any thoughts on how evolution proponents would counter this argument, so thank you for your very insightful challenges. So here goes.

    The first challenge concerning chaos and order is self-contradictory:
    Because order is defined by law, ‘chaos’ cannot beget ‘order’ as this would imply that the laws which define order were already set in place during the time of ‘chaos,’ or lawlessness. This could only be described as law existing simultaneously with lawlessness, a self-contradiction entertained only by the ignorant or the deceptive. If order can be achieved, then that which exists in opposition to the law is not ‘chaotic’ but merely disordered. The challenge would then become an issue of whether something that is ‘disordered’ can become ‘ordered.’ This, of course, is an acknowledgement of intelligent design, meaning that a set of laws exist by which something can be ordered or disordered (or true and false), which laws are established by the intelligence of the organism itself or by an intelligence external to the organism, or theories B and C of the post. (This exposes the inherent contradiction in theory A - that “life” cannot generate from a random and lawless state simply because life itself is defined by law.)

    The second challenge is similarly self-conflicted, in which ‘random’ and ‘required’ cannot co-exist in the same manner that law and lawlessness cannot co-exist. If something can be random and independent of law, it cannot all of a sudden meet conditions and requirements of ’survival’ because this would imply that there are laws in place governing the conditions and requirements of ’survival,’ and therefore that which is ‘random’ does not exist, but only that which does not adhere to the law. Conditions and requirements for survival, or law, is again an acknowledgement of intelligent design in which laws are established by the intelligence of the organism itself or by an intelligence external to the organism. As far as science is concerned, there are no living organisms that can determine their own intelligent design laws, even amoebas. All life forms must function according to pre-determined laws or they perish.

    The bottom line is that both of these challenges are based on fraud, and upon correction are addressed by theories B and C. And of course, theory C is the only theory proven scientifically, that “all living things function according to a design established by intelligence other than its own.” Hopefully this addresses the issue to your satisfaction, and I am more than happy to address any other possible challenges you think evolutionists might come up with. Many thanks!

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